Spiritual Inspiration

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    A human obsession with ownership

    Blueanchor
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    Post  Blueanchor Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:04 am

    The concept of ownership is rather big, so to narrow it down, I'm not speaking about owning something that someone made and we bought, that's more of a mutual exchange.

    But I wonder about the ownership the earth, of countries, of land and sea. What was it that led humans to claim ownership of this earth that we and many other animals and plants share. Did humans ever have that right? or did they make it a right or a rule?

    But then, perhaps more relevant on a spiritual forum, are humans doing the same thing with truth or esoteric knowledge? It seems that the world is full of people putting their flags of belief on a single truth and claiming that they own that truth = that the truth is the colour of their flag.

    But with ownership comes the fear of loss, and like the many wars over territory, whether that be the wars of countries or neighbours warring over the garden fence, such battles lead to walls being put up to shut others out, or to attempt to control others thoughts and beliefs through preaching or claiming greatness or masterdom, or to verbal or physical battles.

    I guess people don't look at what they're doing, or don't see it. But when I look, it seems ludicrous that any person on this earth can dream of owning the earth, the universe or the truth.
    ameliorate
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    Post  ameliorate Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:08 am

    Owning a truth can be a way of saying 'this is what I have found to be true' i.e. an allegiance
    to it.  Truths are mental concepts and, as such, the word 'own' cannot be used in the sense
    of possession.  I would go so far to say that it is a misuse of that word.
    Detlef
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    Post  Detlef Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:09 am

    It's all part of the same game, dark/light, holding on to it, letting go, controlling the outcome, letting it unfold.
    Blueanchor
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    Post  Blueanchor Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:35 pm

    ameliorate wrote:Owning a truth can be a way of saying 'this is what I have found to be true' i.e. an allegiance
    to it.  Truths are mental concepts and, as such, the word 'own' cannot be used in the sense
    of possession.  I would go so far to say that it is a misuse of that word.

     Are truths mental concepts though, or are mental concepts being called truth by their owners (or creators?).

    In my definition of truth, it is an unquestionable absolute. Whereas, mental concepts tend to need consistant questioning and adjustment as we grow from life. They are valid and may have some small essence of truth within them, but an absolute unquestionable truth is... questionable hehe.
    Blueanchor
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    Post  Blueanchor Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:36 pm

    Detlef wrote:It's all part of the same game, dark/light, holding on to it, letting go, controlling the outcome, letting it unfold.


    What game is that though Detlef, why play it?
    ameliorate
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    Post  ameliorate Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:49 pm

    Blueanchor wrote:
    ameliorate wrote:Owning a truth can be a way of saying 'this is what I have found to be true' i.e. an allegiance
    to it.  Truths are mental concepts and, as such, the word 'own' cannot be used in the sense
    of possession.  I would go so far to say that it is a misuse of that word.

     Are truths mental concepts though, or are mental concepts being called truth by their owners (or creators?).

    In my definition of truth, it is an unquestionable absolute. Whereas, mental concepts tend to need consistant questioning and adjustment as we grow from life. They are valid and may have some small essence of truth within them, but an absolute unquestionable truth is... questionable hehe.
    Some truths can take the form of mental concepts but be real, e.g. that we have freewill.

    There are subjective truths, i.e. what is true of a certain environment (say, a family) may not
    be so outside of it.  I believe most of our truths are subjective.

    However, I would regard mystical experiences (where the ego dissolves) as accessing objective truth.
    I had one such experience.

    Can you give me an example of what you deem to be an absolute truth?
    Blueanchor
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    Post  Blueanchor Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:34 pm

    That's just it, I don't regard any example that can be given as being the absolute truth. I could say that it's the paradox of everything and nothing, but I speak of the concept I have of that. 

    The experience of the sense of self dissolving into just being could be considered as experiencing truth. But in my own experiences of that, there is no thought or conceptualising of what is happening during the experience itself. Instead, the concept occurs when we come back to our self and attempt to put words to the experience.
    To be conscious of a thing, our minds must be slightly out of alignment from it.
    So whilst the experience may be truth, the conceptualisations of it aren't the truth.

    Yet of those who speak of their beliefs as being truth, as I've seen you try to do, getting them to speak of their own experience is often quite difficult. Perhaps if people did relate truth to their personal experience, there would be fewer attempts at claiming that their is the only truth.
    ameliorate
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    Post  ameliorate Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:04 pm

    Blueanchor wrote: The experience of the sense of self dissolving into just being could be considered as experiencing truth. But in my own experiences of that, there is no thought or conceptualising of what is happening during the experience itself. Instead, the concept occurs when we come back to our self and attempt to put words to the experience.
    To be conscious of a thing, our minds must be slightly out of alignment from it.
    So whilst the experience may be truth, the conceptualisations of it aren't the truth.
    I understand what you are saying but, in my mystical experience, what I saw was all of reality interconnected in a fine mesh/net.  That is not conceptualising it but describing (somewhat inadequately) my direct vision. 

    However, to say that this means we are all one would be the concept, i.e. later and on reflection.

    Blueanchor
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    Post  Blueanchor Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:00 am

    ameliorate wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote: The experience of the sense of self dissolving into just being could be considered as experiencing truth. But in my own experiences of that, there is no thought or conceptualising of what is happening during the experience itself. Instead, the concept occurs when we come back to our self and attempt to put words to the experience.
    To be conscious of a thing, our minds must be slightly out of alignment from it.
    So whilst the experience may be truth, the conceptualisations of it aren't the truth.
    I understand what you are saying but, in my mystical experience, what I saw was all of reality interconnected in a fine mesh/net.  That is not conceptualising it but describing (somewhat inadequately) my direct vision. 

    However, to say that this means we are all one would be the concept, i.e. later and on reflection.


    Yes, that makes sense, that is slightly different to my experience that I was relating to it.

    But yes, the later is the concept or the belief about what happened. But over time and dependent upon the influence a person has, those concepts can become blown up into whole systems of belief or paths for people to follow to reach that truth, and it's this that stakes a claim to the truth - or perhaps I should say staking a claim to having the key to the gates of truth.
    Detlef
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    Post  Detlef Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:15 am

    Blueanchor wrote:
    Detlef wrote:It's all part of the same game, dark/light, holding on to it, letting go, controlling the outcome, letting it unfold.


    What game is that though Detlef, why play it?
    It depends from which point in creation one looks at it, and tries to understands it.
    From the point of a third density incarnate, or from the point of the higher self, or the soul, (they have almost identical view points, and are sometimes one and the same)
    Or perhaps from the view point of the source, where everything emanates from, and at some point returns to.
    Ultimately we are all part of the same the One, and there is only One, and this one wants to expand.
    And that is all.
    In order to do this it needs to come out of it's shell, so to speak.
    In a state of unity there can be no expansion, only in a state of polarity.
    Can you imagine, every galaxy is the seed of a new (uni)verse. And there are as many verses as there are cells in your body?
    Blueanchor
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    Post  Blueanchor Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:55 am

    Detlef wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:
    Detlef wrote:It's all part of the same game, dark/light, holding on to it, letting go, controlling the outcome, letting it unfold.


    What game is that though Detlef, why play it?
    It depends from which point in creation one looks at it, and tries to understands it.
    From the point of a third density incarnate, or from the point of the higher self, or the soul, (they have almost identical view points, and are sometimes one and the same)
    Or perhaps from the view point of the source, where everything emanates from, and at some point returns to.
    Ultimately we are all part of the same the One, and there is only One, and this one wants to expand.
    And that is all.
    In order to do this it needs to come out of it's shell, so to speak.
    In a state of unity there can be no expansion, only in a state of polarity.
    Can you imagine, every galaxy is the seed of a new (uni)verse. And there are as many verses as there are cells in your body?
    These are commonly held concepts that you speak of. But the way in which you speak suggests that you no longer view these concepts as such, but have come to believe them to be truth.

    I believe in oneness because that word seems to describe my experience. But I don't believe in third density incarnates, higher selves or sources or that oneness has desire to want to expand, as I've felt no desire or want in experiencing oneness. And yes I can imagine a multiverse, but I don't imagine knowing it.

    So we share some small seed of belief, but there are many that we don't share. Does that make me ignorant, or yet to discover your truth? Or are they concepts amongst many equally valid concepts.
    Detlef
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    Post  Detlef Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:01 am

    Truth are personal, and stem from experiences. The conclusion out of those experiences can be correct, incorrect or somewhere in between..
    No one in this verse has a complete understanding of all that is. With that I would say, all understandings are valid to some degree.
    Blueanchor
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    Post  Blueanchor Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:25 pm

    Detlef wrote:Truth are personal, and stem from experiences. The conclusion out of those experiences can be correct, incorrect or somewhere in between..
    No one in this verse has a complete understanding of all that is. With that I would say, all understandings are valid to some degree.


    Subjectivity is a personal assessment of experience and it is likely, as you say to be somewhat correct and equally as much incorrect.

    But can something so subjective, with awareness that it is unlikely to be entirely correct, accurately be shared with others as something that is true?

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