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    Post  Violet on Sun May 23, 2010 1:00 am

    Would you be frozen after death in the hope of being brought back to life at a later date? Will this ever be possible? The soul would surely be long gone so if you were brought back to life would you be just like a breathing robot?



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    Post  Mal5252 on Sun May 23, 2010 1:16 am

    Violet wrote:Would you be frozen after death in the hope of being brought back to life at a later date? Will this ever be possible? The soul would surely be long gone so if you were brought back to life would you be just like a breathing robot?
    Hi Violet Cryonics 21581 ,
    it gives me a shiver down my spine to think of someone 'living' without a soul. Their eyes would be dead.

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    Post  Violet on Sun May 23, 2010 1:21 am

    Horrible thought isn't it, unless the soul is aware that the body has been frozen and can somehow make its way back (ooh............ it would make an interesting film that! Where's my pen..........)



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    Post  Mal5252 on Sun May 23, 2010 1:25 am

    Violet wrote:Horrible thought isn't it, unless the soul is aware that the body has been frozen and can somehow make its way back (ooh............ it would make an interesting film that! Where's my pen..........)
    Hey Violet
    Cryonics 619524

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    Post  Violet on Sun May 23, 2010 1:27 am

    Just wait Mal til my names up there with James Camerons............ Cryonics 349308 And I outsell avatar!



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    Post  Mal5252 on Sun May 23, 2010 1:30 am

    Violet wrote:Just wait Mal til my names up there with James Camerons............ Cryonics 349308 And I outsell avatar!
    Hi Violet Cryonics 21581 ,
    dream on girl. Cryonics 809779

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    Post  Violet on Sun May 23, 2010 1:32 am

    Cryonics 702347 Cryonics 702347 Cryonics 702347 you never know Mal Cryonics 809779



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    Post  Mal5252 on Sun May 23, 2010 1:38 am

    Violet wrote:Would you be frozen after death in the hope of being brought back to life at a later date? Will this ever be possible? The soul would surely be long gone so if you were brought back to life would you be just like a breathing robot?
    Hi Violet Cryonics 21581 ,
    I think if we ever met someone who was brought back thru cryonics they would appear like a scene from a Stephen King movie.

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    Post  Violet on Sun May 23, 2010 9:32 pm

    Hi Mal yeah it makes you wonder what they would be like, there is no substitute for the soul.



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    Post  1antique on Sun May 23, 2010 10:49 pm

    They would probably be Republicans! Cryonics 1702 Cryonics 619524 Cryonics 368832 Cryonics 173994
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    Post  AngelTony on Sun May 23, 2010 11:41 pm

    Violet wrote:Horrible thought isn't it, unless the soul is aware that the body has been frozen and can somehow make its way back (ooh............ it would make an interesting film that! Where's my pen..........)
    Violet I think that would make a fantastic film, I spent many years wanting to be a director, but stayed in electronics. I can image the dead look in there eyes as they imerged with out a soul. Actually very similar to a few people I have know in real life. The temperature around the room actually dropped and the stillness in the air was haunting. All I sensed was pure evil. I was young and stupid but something inside me new something was wrong. I could not watch the Omen like films for years. This is how close that was. Cryonics 350287
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    Post  Violet on Fri May 28, 2010 2:17 am

    I can image the dead look in there eyes as they imerged with out a soul.

    Hi Tony
    You'd spot them a mile off wouldn't you? You don't here much about people going for this anymore, though i'm sure they still do it.

    Don't they use this method when freezing human eggs? And do they freeze embryos or not because if they do it must mean the soul enters sometime after conception.



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    Post  mac on Fri May 28, 2010 10:19 am

    I was taught that humankind is an indivisible association of spirit (or soul) and physical form. Death of a physical body comes about when the spirit/soul withdraws, when it no longer animates the physical shell.

    On the above basis, for cryogenic preservation of a human body it would first need to be alive. The soul/spirit would still be animating it and prepared/able to maintain contact with the body as it becomes 'frozen', keeping it alive at a very low level of activity. This might theoretically be possible with a whole body or a part in a similar fashion to the viability of cryogenically frozen sperm and eggs.

    On 'defrosting' the previously frozen body, however, the same animating spirit/soul would still be associated with it and hence it would not be a situation of a body without a soul.

    Of course in a movie scenario none of this matters a jot - fantasy reigns.
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    Post  Mal5252 on Sat May 29, 2010 12:42 am

    mac wrote:I was taught that humankind is an indivisible association of spirit (or soul) and physical form. Death of a physical body comes about when the spirit/soul withdraws, when it no longer animates the physical shell.

    On the above basis, for cryogenic preservation of a human body it would first need to be alive. The soul/spirit would still be animating it and prepared/able to maintain contact with the body as it becomes 'frozen', keeping it alive at a very low level of activity. This might theoretically be possible with a whole body or a part in a similar fashion to the viability of cryogenically frozen sperm and eggs.

    On 'defrosting' the previously frozen body, however, the same animating spirit/soul would still be associated with it and hence it would not be a situation of a body without a soul.

    Of course in a movie scenario none of this matters a jot - fantasy reigns.
    Hi mac Cryonics 348985 ,
    hmmm...yes I agree that humankind are spirit (soul) and body, however when the physical body ceases to function (dies) the spirit/soul leaves the body. So if someone is actually dead I doubt that the spirit/soul will return to the same body if it's reactivated from a cryogenic state.

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    Post  Violet on Sat May 29, 2010 12:59 am

    Another thought, the spirit would know the body was being frozen, and it would also probably know the chances of it being brought back to life in the future, if it knew it would be brought back maybe it would stay close to the body awaiting it's resurrection, it is believed by some that there is no time as such in spirit so it wouldn't matter how long it had to wait.



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    Post  Mal5252 on Sat May 29, 2010 1:04 am

    Violet wrote:Another thought, the spirit would know the body was being frozen, and it would also probably know the chances of it being brought back to life in the future, if it knew it would be brought back maybe it would stay close to the body awaiting it's resurrection, it is believed by some that there is no time as such in spirit so it wouldn't matter how long it had to wait.
    Hi Violet Cryonics 21581 ,
    you make an interesting point there. It's true that in the spiritual realm time does not exist, whether it's only a few hours or it's 600 years it makes no difference.

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    Post  Violet on Sat May 29, 2010 1:06 am

    Hi Mal, my mind wanders this time of night Cryonics 809779



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    Post  mac on Sat May 29, 2010 9:26 am

    Mal5252 wrote:
    mac wrote:I was taught that humankind is an indivisible association of spirit (or soul) and physical form. Death of a physical body comes about when the spirit/soul withdraws, when it no longer animates the physical shell.

    On the above basis, for cryogenic preservation of a human body it would first need to be alive. The soul/spirit would still be animating it and prepared/able to maintain contact with the body as it becomes 'frozen', keeping it alive at a very low level of activity. This might theoretically be possible with a whole body or a part in a similar fashion to the viability of cryogenically frozen sperm and eggs.

    On 'defrosting' the previously frozen body, however, the same animating spirit/soul would still be associated with it and hence it would not be a situation of a body without a soul.

    Of course in a movie scenario none of this matters a jot - fantasy reigns.
    Hi mac Cryonics 348985 ,
    hmmm...yes I agree that humankind are spirit (soul) and body, however when the physical body ceases to function (dies) the spirit/soul leaves the body. So if someone is actually dead I doubt that the spirit/soul will return to the same body if it's reactivated from a cryogenic state.

    Mal Cryonics 588401

    And that's why I said the body would first have to be alive, as detailed in my second paragraph, quote: " .....for cryogenic preservation of a human body it would first need to be alive. The soul/spirit would still be animating it and prepared/able to maintain contact with the body as it becomes 'frozen', keeping it alive at a very low level of activity."

    Cryogenically freezing a dead body - that is a body where the animating soul/spirit has already departed - would be pointless. Only the physical tissues would be preserved - not life when life had already ceased.

    As far as we know the severance is irreversible although it has to be said that cryogenics is such a new subject that teachers/guides would not have been able to offer any guidance on it in the past. Perhaps it might be possible for a soul/spirit to return to a body which had been preserved at a critical point, when the animating spirit fully understood the unusual situation and was willing to retain its linkage with that body?

    Until new, knowledgeable guides appear, guides who are aware of developments in the physical, guides who can communicate effectively through passive instruments (mediums), until then we can only work on what has been taught before.

    It may be that such contemporary guides would simply tell us that it is not possible to re-animate a preserved body under any circumstances - but we need a guide to help with this.

    I won't be holding my breath in the meantime!
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    Post  1antique on Sat May 29, 2010 5:28 pm

    I read this in 'How Stuff Works'
    ( http://science.howstuffworks.com/genetic-science/cryonics2.htm )
    ­If ­you decide to have yourself placed in cryonic suspension, what happens to you? Well, first, you have to join a cryonics facility and pay an annual membership fee (in the area of $400 a year). Then, when your heart stops beating and you are pronounced "legally dead," an emergency response team from the facility springs into action. The team stabilizes your body, supplying your brain with enough oxygen and blood to preserve minimal function until you can be transported to the suspension facility. Your body is packed in ice and injected with heparin (an anticoagulant) to prevent your blood from clotting during the trip. A medical team awaits the arrival of your body at the cryonics facility.

    In my opinion, an imortant thing to notice is that, even though the body has been declared dead, the cryogenic response team immediately provides the body with enough oxygen and blood to continue minimal function. If the body is still operating at minimal functioning, would the spirit still be confined within the body - even though medical science has deemed the body to be dead? If this is what happens, would that mean that a person's soul would be locked up within a frozen inantimate body for a years or decades?

    To me, this would be much worse than having a body brought back without a soul.
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    Post  mac on Sat May 29, 2010 6:16 pm

    1antique wrote:I read this in 'How Stuff Works'
    ( http://science.howstuffworks.com/genetic-science/cryonics2.htm )
    ­If ­you decide to have yourself placed in cryonic suspension, what happens to you? Well, first, you have to join a cryonics facility and pay an annual membership fee (in the area of $400 a year). Then, when your heart stops beating and you are pronounced "legally dead," an emergency response team from the facility springs into action. The team stabilizes your body, supplying your brain with enough oxygen and blood to preserve minimal function until you can be transported to the suspension facility. Your body is packed in ice and injected with heparin (an anticoagulant) to prevent your blood from clotting during the trip. A medical team awaits the arrival of your body at the cryonics facility.

    In my opinion, an imortant thing to notice is that, even though the body has been declared dead, the cryogenic response team immediately provides the body with enough oxygen and blood to continue minimal function. If the body is still operating at minimal functioning, would the spirit still be confined within the body - even though medical science has deemed the body to be dead? If this is what happens, would that mean that a person's soul would be locked up within a frozen inantimate body for a years or decades?

    To me, this would be much worse than having a body brought back without a soul.

    An interesting point and a somewhat similar situation to a persistent vegetative state. There is no independent life in such situations but neither can it be said that the soul has withdrawn....

    I can't make up my mind as to whether an animating soul/spirit is "locked up" in a minimally functioning body or whether the body remains alive because the soul/spirit is remaining with its body because it is not yet time for the link to be dissolved - as a long-time Spiritualist the latter appeals to my reason rather than the former.

    I think we should dismiss any notion of "...having a body brought back without a soul." as we seem to agree that a soul is needed for life to occur at all. Plainly a body still 'alive' - however sophisticated medical definitions may become - must, by definition, have an associated soul.

    And if a body appears to have been 'brought back to life' then it was animated by a soul/spirit all along....

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    Post  Violet on Sun May 30, 2010 12:05 am

    An interesting point and a somewhat similar situation to a persistent vegetative state. There is no independent life in such situations but neither can it be said that the soul has withdrawn....


    I've always believed that in such a state the soul can come and go as it pleases, between both worlds.



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    Post  mac on Sun May 30, 2010 7:55 am

    Violet wrote:
    An interesting point and a somewhat similar situation to a persistent vegetative state. There is no independent life in such situations but neither can it be said that the soul has withdrawn....


    I've always believed that in such a state the soul can come and go as it pleases, between both worlds.

    And that's exactly the position I hold, Violet. You're the only person other than myself that I've ever heard say it, though...
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    Post  Violet on Sun May 30, 2010 10:58 pm

    I really believe it mac, and I often wonder, (having worked with the elderly) if when they 'drift off' such as with certain conditions the spirit is able to come and go then too.



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    Post  mac on Mon May 31, 2010 8:43 am

    Violet wrote:I really believe it mac, and I often wonder, (having worked with the elderly) if when they 'drift off' such as with certain conditions the spirit is able to come and go then too.

    good point Violet... I don't have your experience but agree with all you say.

    It may well be a valuable time of re-acclimatisation, a time of re-familiarisation with the world to which they are shortly to return, a time to refresh relationships, to meet old acquaintances.

    But, then, we see these things similarly because we both share an understanding of you-know-what. How I wish others could also share such understanding...

    We digress - this thread is about cryonics.
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    Post  Violet on Mon May 31, 2010 10:17 pm

    It may well be a valuable time of re-acclimatisation, a time of re-familiarisation with the world to which they are shortly to return, a time to refresh relationships, to meet old acquaintances.


    I agree with you too, as for the above it makes you wonder if this is precisely why certain conditions (generally, as there are always exceptions,) only affect the elderly, some kind of gradual and gentle transistion.
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