Spiritual Inspiration

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Search Query
Display results as : Posts Topics
Advanced Search

You are not connected. Please login or register

+6

kardecian

Violet

skye

Crystal

SpiritVoices

ameliorate

10 posters

Previous

1, 2, 3

Next

Morals & Conscience in action

ameliorate: Member; Number of posts : 3603
Age : 74
Location : London, UK
Job/hobbies : Full-time person! Cooking, creating things
Registration date : 2012-02-15

Post n°1

Morals & Conscience in action

ameliorate Wed May 14, 2014 7:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

I had an experience today that got me thinking on this topic. I wonder what you would do in this situation.

I was in a supermarket when I saw a deluxe chocolate torte - normally around £4 - greatly reduced! Not down to £2 or so but 59p!! I could hardly believe it so I put it in my shopping basket. After I had paid for it, (and still in the store) I looked at the receipt, to find it said "black cherry yogurt 59p". That's when I realised that someone had obviously put this label on it...perhaps intending to buy it. (There was a worker in that section when I saw the torte). I paused very briefly, since I knew it was morally wrong to keep it, but then I saw it as a lucky opportunity, i.e. my weak morals on this gave way to the precedence of greed! If it had been in a charity shop then my conscience would have kicked in. As it is I don't have a lot of respect for commercial companies who make a fat profit from consumers.

What would you have done? I realise returning it would have been problematic since, how would they know it wasn't me which changed the label in the first place?

Let me give another scenario and ask what you would do. If someone dropped a paper note of money (say £10 in UK...don't know the equivalent in other countries) and they hadn't noticed it - would you point it out to them or hope they would go away and you would take it...assuming no-one else saw this? Or would it depend on who the person was, e.g. elderly or someone well off? I would defo give it back.

Last edited by ameliorate on Wed May 14, 2014 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°26

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Sat May 17, 2014 11:06 am

Going back to your original post you state, I was in a supermarket when I saw a deluxe chocolate torte - normally around £4 - greatly reduced! Not down to £2 or so but 59p!! I could hardly believe it so I put it in my shopping basket.

The opportunity to query the price difference was at the cashier's counter before you paid for it.

ameliorate: Member; Number of posts : 3603
Age : 74
Location : London, UK
Job/hobbies : Full-time person! Cooking, creating things
Registration date : 2012-02-15

Post n°27

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

ameliorate Sat May 17, 2014 11:43 am

skye wrote:Going back to your original post you state, I was in a supermarket when I saw a deluxe chocolate torte - normally around £4 - greatly reduced! Not down to £2 or so but 59p!! I could hardly believe it so I put it in my shopping basket.

The opportunity to query the price difference was at the cashier's counter before you paid for it.

Sometimes items are drastically reduced. The torte had a large crack right down the centre, so I assumed that this was the reason. In hindsight, e.g under your scrutiny, I see that I should have mentioned this in the OP. (I assumed it would
be obvious/understood that the goods were damaged in some way).

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°28

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Sat May 17, 2014 12:24 pm

Lion L wrote:

Skye
You say you don't care what they think of you, yet you are concerned they would accuse you of committing a crime and you would pay the consequences...

What constitutes a 'crime' is what the government judge to be so. The government are much more concerned with the interests of big business than with the poor. Therefore, it is a 'crime' to take a few pence from a milti-billion company but not for that same company to charge exorbitant prices for their goods.
In my opinion, man made laws which protect wealth are not the same as god given laws (ie conscience) which encourage us to help others who are less fortunate than ourselves.

I feel exactly the same way as you do about multi-billion companies and the government versus the general public. The prices supermarkets charge is deemed to be an offer only, nothing more. No one has to pay their exorbitant prices, they can go shop in another store. Granted we tend not to do this as it's convenience rather than price that matters in the majority of cases, and the different high retail shop prices are quite similar.
If I can't afford to buy, I leave the product on the shelf. I don't steal it just because I decide to ignore the man made laws and then seek to justify my actions by saying something like, 'Well they have more money than I ever will, they can afford to lose a few pence here and there." If we didn't have man made laws the world would be in utter chaos. Everyone would be acting in a selfish manner and as for spiritual laws, well they wouldn't even be considered as there would be no need for their existence.
The public in general will always be viewed as being less fortunate than any multi- billion company, why is this, because it is true. This reality is the same with my parents, they are wealthier than I am, should this imply they leave their hard earned cash to me? I don't think so. It's not feasible to have one rule for one and another rule for those people whom we may consider to be less fortunate than ourselves.

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°29

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Sat May 17, 2014 12:38 pm

ameliorate wrote:

skye wrote:Going back to your original post you state, I was in a supermarket when I saw a deluxe chocolate torte - normally around £4 - greatly reduced! Not down to £2 or so but 59p!! I could hardly believe it so I put it in my shopping basket.

The opportunity to query the price difference was at the cashier's counter before you paid for it.

Sometimes items are drastically reduced. The torte had a large crack right down the centre, so I assumed that this was the reason. In hindsight, e.g under your scrutiny, I see that I should have mentioned this in the OP. (I assumed it would
be obvious/understood that the goods were damaged in some way).

I am not judging your actions ameliorate or putting them under scrutiny. I know how goods offered at a price reduction can often look damaged in some way. I was writing what I would have done in a similar situation, the significant reduction in price would have made me think it's too good to be true too.

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°30

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sat May 17, 2014 12:55 pm

skye wrote:
If I can't afford to buy, I leave the product on the shelf. I don't steal it just because I decide to ignore the man made laws and then seek to justify my actions by saying something like, 'Well they have more money than I ever will, they can afford to lose a few pence here and there." If we didn't have man made laws the world would be in utter chaos. Everyone would be acting in a selfish manner and as for spiritual laws, well they wouldn't even be considered as there would be no need for their existence.

I do not steal, as a rule, because I have enough.
I have no problem with the poor stealing from the rich.
The wealthy got there by hard work you say? No, they got there through fortune and through exploitation.
Capitalism, and the laws that go with it, promote greed and selfishness rather than preventing them.

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°31

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Sat May 17, 2014 1:39 pm

Lion L wrote:

skye wrote:
If I can't afford to buy, I leave the product on the shelf. I don't steal it just because I decide to ignore the man made laws and then seek to justify my actions by saying something like, 'Well they have more money than I ever will, they can afford to lose a few pence here and there." If we didn't have man made laws the world would be in utter chaos. Everyone would be acting in a selfish manner and as for spiritual laws, well they wouldn't even be considered as there would be no need for their existence.

I do not steal, as a rule, because I have enough.
I have no problem with the poor stealing from the rich.
The wealthy got there by hard work you say? No, they got there through fortune and through exploitation.
Capitalism, and the laws that go with it, promote greed and selfishness rather than preventing them.

We could talk about Capitalism til the cows come home. Although at this moment it wouldn't change the situation for us, the members of the general public.
I have no problem with any person doing or acting in a manner that they think is right for them. I am not interested in how other people live their lives, if I was I would be them instead of me. What is of more importance in my view, is how I conduct my life, that is my business and my responsibility.
I never mentioned that multi-billion businesses got their money by hard work. That comment was in regard to my parents and they did not receive their 'fortune' through exploitation of any kind on their part, it was due to hard work.

SpiritVoices: Member; Number of posts : 13312
Location : UK
Job/hobbies : Retired
Registration date : 2010-12-17

Post n°32

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

SpiritVoices Sat May 17, 2014 1:43 pm

An email has just informed me that the Nat.Health Governors ( I think that is correct) have received a 2.1/2 million rise and the nurses a 2.1/2 cut......in their salaries....

Put your hands up those who think he will gain power again in the next general election?

Is this man seriously sane?

kardecian: Member; Number of posts : 249
Location : Oregon
Job/hobbies : Funeral Service
Registration date : 2013-06-20

Post n°33

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

kardecian Sat May 17, 2014 5:22 pm

In my earlier post I was not saying that anyone stole at Waitrose. I was speaking about the attitude that it's OK to steal from one person because they have more than another person. To me, that's wrong. Stealing is stealing. Also, I don't think it's true that the rich don't voluntarily give to the poor. They give to the poor all of the time. To assume that the rich should be victims, just because they have more, is communist thinking. Remember reading about the Communist Revolution in Russia? It didn't turn out too well, did it? Millions murdered... millions homeless... property ceased to make all equal... The Nazis did the same. They took from the Jews because they seemingly had more than others......a bunch of B S as far as I'm concerned.
Besides, Karma plays a big part in this. Some have more due to Karma. Others have less due to Karma. God is not unjust, and His ways are not your ways. We may not like the results of Karma, but things are as they are because of what we've done in the past and because of what we are doing now.
If one wishes to steal from the rich to give to the poor, then let them. However, they will pay for their crime in the future (either in this life or in the next life). You can't escape justice.

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°34

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sat May 17, 2014 5:52 pm

skye wrote:I never mentioned that multi-billion businesses got their money by hard work. That comment was in regard to my parents and they did not receive their 'fortune' through exploitation of any kind on their part, it was due to hard work.

There are 3 ways to become rich: either one inherits it, wins it or gains it through exploitation.
Nobody ever got rich through hard work, although those who are rich would have you believe so.
Think about it; a man works from 6AM til 6PM six days a week, and earns minimum wage. He works very hard and is worn out when he gets home, but once his bills are paid he has nothing.
Someone else works from 9 til 5 with a 2 hour lunch, 5 days a week. They take home 10 times more than the first bloke, have three or four holidays a year and live in a six bedroomed house. And then they say that their wealth came from hard work!
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

SpiritVoices: Member; Number of posts : 13312
Location : UK
Job/hobbies : Retired
Registration date : 2010-12-17

Post n°35

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

SpiritVoices Sat May 17, 2014 7:03 pm

I just got to believe every word you have said,Lion L.

My father had a life like that....my mother had to go back to work to help pay the bills.

Life wasn't easy!

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°36

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Sat May 17, 2014 7:38 pm

Most working people don't have an easy life Joan. I recall being told that people only get paid enough money so that they need to return to work on a Monday morning. Belonging to the working class society I have found this to be correct. As with all things in life there will always be people who have more than others, so yes I can understand the reference to people being exploited. This may not be acceptable to a significant number of people, yet complaining about it, as we have found, resolves absolutely nothing. One can end up bitter and twisted or we could choose to accept the situation for what it is and get on with life.

I would prefer to go to work, earn my minimum wage than sit on my butt at home twiddling my thumbs and resenting the wealthy in the process. Working class people do work darn hard for a pittance of a pay and make many sacrifices along the way. Yes, he may have nothing financially to show for his hard work but depending on materialistic things to live a life worth living isn't ideal it is not the be all, and end all to life.

The flip side of the coin is that people who create jobs and employ people, or as in Lion Ls own words 'exploit' people, also sacrifice themselves and their families too. The differences in my opinion, is they do so by choice, whatever their intentions for compensation maybe.

There will always be winners and losers depending on ones perspective.

SpiritVoices: Member; Number of posts : 13312
Location : UK
Job/hobbies : Retired
Registration date : 2010-12-17

Post n°37

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

SpiritVoices Sat May 17, 2014 8:45 pm

No,they don't,Skye....
Remembering when I left school at 16 years old. Left at the end of the summer holidays which would be around September.... I started my first job a week later training as a Punch Card operator!.......

The job was lined up for me before I even left school.

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°38

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sun May 18, 2014 8:01 am

skye wrote:I would prefer to go to work, earn my minimum wage than sit on my butt at home twiddling my thumbs and resenting the wealthy in the process. Working class people do work darn hard for a pittance of a pay and make many sacrifices along the way. Yes, he may have nothing financially to show for his hard work but depending on materialistic things to live a life worth living isn't ideal it is not the be all, and end all to life.

The flip side of the coin is that people who create jobs and employ people, or as in Lion Ls own words 'exploit' people, also sacrifice themselves and their families too. The differences in my opinion, is they do so by choice, whatever their intentions for compensation maybe.

There will always be winners and losers depending on ones perspective.

All I would like Skye, is a fair society. One where people are rewarded equally for the work they do. Is that so wrong?
Regarding those who create jobs. Have no doubt that they are not doing it from the good of their hearts; they are using (employing) others for their own profit. That is exploitation.
How about us all working together for mutual benefit rather than low paid workers being used to make one man rich?

ameliorate: Member; Number of posts : 3603
Age : 74
Location : London, UK
Job/hobbies : Full-time person! Cooking, creating things
Registration date : 2012-02-15

Post n°39

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

ameliorate Sun May 18, 2014 10:40 am

Lion L wrote:All I would like Skye, is a fair society. One where people are rewarded equally for the work they do. Is that so wrong?
Regarding those who create jobs. Have no doubt that they are not doing it from the good of their hearts; they are using (employing) others for their own profit. That is exploitation.
How about us all working together for mutual benefit rather than low paid workers being used to make one man rich?

I would also like to see a fair society. The exploitation is now worse than ever here in UK; the unemployed now have to do
"voluntary" work for their benefit. The phrase "slave labour" comes to mind....

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°40

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sun May 18, 2014 10:54 am

kardecian wrote:If one wishes to steal from the rich to give to the poor, then let them. However, they will pay for their crime in the future (either in this life or in the next life). You can't escape justice.

It is less of a crime to take from the rich so that the poor can eat, than it is to get rich and pay your workers barely enough to live on.
If you are right about karma then the rich will suffer in their next life. However, as we are not sure whether or not karma is real, shouldn't we try to make the world a fairer place now?

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°41

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sun May 18, 2014 10:56 am

SpiritVoices wrote:I just got to believe every word you have said,Lion L.

My father had a life like that....my mother had to go back to work to help pay the bills.

Life wasn't easy!

Thank you SpiritVoices.
Your parents are not alone. For every rich man there are thousands of poor subsidising him.

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°42

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sun May 18, 2014 10:58 am

ameliorate wrote:
I would also like to see a fair society. The exploitation is now worse than ever here in UK; the unemployed now have to do
"voluntary" work for their benefit. The phrase "slave labour" comes to mind....

Society is going backwards spiritually rather than progressing it seems.

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°43

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sun May 18, 2014 11:07 am

kardecian wrote: Remember reading about the Communist Revolution in Russia? It didn't turn out too well, did it? Millions murdered... millions homeless... property ceased to make all equal...

That is right. Communism failed because those at the top looked after themselves. What began as communism swiftly became fascism.
Communism, has never been in place. The fascist governments, which claimed to be communist, have given it a bad name. They have also given ammunition to the capitalists who are anti-communist because they do not want to lose their wealth.

ameliorate: Member; Number of posts : 3603
Age : 74
Location : London, UK
Job/hobbies : Full-time person! Cooking, creating things
Registration date : 2012-02-15

Post n°44

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

ameliorate Sun May 18, 2014 12:35 pm

Lion L wrote:

kardecian wrote: Remember reading about the Communist Revolution in Russia? It didn't turn out too well, did it? Millions murdered... millions homeless... property ceased to make all equal...

That is right. Communism failed because those at the top looked after themselves. What began as communism swiftly became fascism.
Communism, has never been in place. The fascist governments, which claimed to be communist, have given it a bad name. They have also given ammunition to the capitalists who are anti-communist because they do not want to lose their wealth.

I wish more people would know this Lion. The criticism of communism is commonly seen as depicted here but, as you rightly say, communism has never been in place. Perhaps it's an inherent problem of the ego....even a socialist poet I knew admitted that he wanted what the rich had!

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°45

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Sun May 18, 2014 1:48 pm

Lion L wrote:

skye wrote:I would prefer to go to work, earn my minimum wage than sit on my butt at home twiddling my thumbs and resenting the wealthy in the process. Working class people do work darn hard for a pittance of a pay and make many sacrifices along the way. Yes, he may have nothing financially to show for his hard work but depending on materialistic things to live a life worth living isn't ideal it is not the be all, and end all to life.

The flip side of the coin is that people who create jobs and employ people, or as in Lion Ls own words 'exploit' people, also sacrifice themselves and their families too. The differences in my opinion, is they do so by choice, whatever their intentions for compensation maybe.

There will always be winners and losers depending on ones perspective.

All I would like Skye, is a fair society. One where people are rewarded equally for the work they do. Is that so wrong?
Regarding those who create jobs. Have no doubt that they are not doing it from the good of their hearts; they are using (employing) others for their own profit. That is exploitation.
How about us all working together for mutual benefit rather than low paid workers being used to make one man rich?

I wouldn't disagree that it's wrong to want to live in a society which is fair. I do think it's a pie in the sky dream for some kind of utopia to exist though.

It would be idealistic if we could work together for the mutual benefit of all. Unfortunately, there will always be people - including those of working class, who will claim they hold a higher position to that of another. For example, one person may say, I have more responsibility on my shoulders than my co-worker has, so I should be paid more. We know this is true with most occupations. So is it fair the co-worker earns the same amount of money as the first guy when they don't do the same work, even though it may appear to outsiders as if they do? In my eyes, no, it isn't fair.

I'm neither for or against multi- billion pounds organisations or their owners. Someone else would do it if it wasn't them. They provide a service that I am unable to fully provide for myself, nor do I have the desire to do so. This service cost me money and yes, I agree as I previously said in another post, exploitation does take place in any workplace.

The alternative for people who are unhappy with their situation is that they could decide either to put up and shut up or choose to set up a business of their own. If they're lucky enough to have a demand for their products, they may also become multi-billion pounds businesses.

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°46

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sun May 18, 2014 5:10 pm

Or, replace the system with a fairer one where there are neither rich nor poor.

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this Skye, so let's agree to disagree.

Peace. :asmile:

:asmile:

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°47

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Sun May 18, 2014 6:21 pm

Lion L wrote:Or, replace the system with a fairer one where there are neither rich nor poor.

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this Skye, so let's agree to disagree.

Peace.

Yes, I agree a fairer system would be good if it was attainable and workable for everyone, Lion L, sadly I just don't see it happening in the foreseeable future. It would be great to be proved wrong though.

It has been said by Spirit, when people die they have a review of their lives and their behaviour. They both see and feel the suffering their actions caused to others, as well as the joys. So, although this doesn't compensate for the people working for a pittance today, knowing that one day people at the top do have to face and deal with the consequences of their actions enables me to accept and understand that it is impossible for any one person on a spiritual level to get away with anything, be it good or bad.

I'm in agreement it's best we to agree to disagree. :)

Lion L: Member; Number of posts : 57
Age : 52
Location : East Midlands, England, UK
Job/hobbies : Knowledge, gaining and sharing
Registration date : 2014-05-15

Post n°48

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Lion L Sun May 18, 2014 7:46 pm

skye wrote:

I'm in agreement it's best we to agree to disagree. :)

Thank you Skye.

:kiss:

:kiss:

skye: Member; Number of posts : 1256
Registration date : 2009-09-06

Post n°49

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

skye Mon May 19, 2014 12:14 pm

You're welcome Lion L. I wouldn't want us to fall out or avoid each other because we disagree on this or any other topic, that would just be silly. :hugz:

:hugz:

kardecian: Member; Number of posts : 249
Location : Oregon
Job/hobbies : Funeral Service
Registration date : 2013-06-20

Post n°50

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

kardecian Mon May 19, 2014 8:55 pm

Lion L wrote:

kardecian wrote: Remember reading about the Communist Revolution in Russia? It didn't turn out too well, did it? Millions murdered... millions homeless... property ceased to make all equal...

That is right. Communism failed because those at the top looked after themselves. What began as communism swiftly became fascism.
Communism, has never been in place. The fascist governments, which claimed to be communist, have given it a bad name. They have also given ammunition to the capitalists who are anti-communist because they do not want to lose their wealth.

Oh, I see. So, they had good intentions, but it ended up not working because of 'those at the top' looked after themselves. OK. So, the Communists failed in the Soviet Union and in China. But they are going to get it right this next time? OK. I can't argue with your good intentions.

Sponsored content

Sponsored content

Post n°51

Re: Morals & Conscience in action

Sponsored content

Previous

1, 2, 3

Next

Similar topics

» Our Disciplinary Action Policy
» ....and now for the GOOD news!!

Current date/time is Fri May 17, 2024 5:30 am