For those interested:
https://www.trinity.edu/mkearl/death-7.html
https://www.trinity.edu/mkearl/death-7.html
5 posters
Death and Social Order
Azrael- Member
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ameliorate- Member
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I found it too grim to get into on this lovely Sunday. Azrael, I seem to recall you saying
that you are not spiritual and that those that are believe in false hope....is that still the case?
that you are not spiritual and that those that are believe in false hope....is that still the case?
Azrael- Member
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ameliorate wrote:I found it too grim to get into on this lovely Sunday. Azrael, I seem to recall you saying
that you are not spiritual and that those that are believe in false hope....is that still the case?
Hi. I believe that when you are dead, your dead, period. There is no incontrovertible evidence that shows our soul or whatever it is passes on to another realm. You often hear people say "Well he or she has gone to a better place" and this may well be the case in their minds but death is not an easy concept for the human brain to grasp. And no I am not spiritual simply because I have yet to find anything spiritual to believe in. I do not sit around basing my life on some deity or deities that have not been proven to exist much less be of any help to me. And as far as false hope is concerned it is not just spiritual based. False hope can be anything from expecting to hit the lottery to winning a new car.
ameliorate- Member
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Being spiritual does not necessarily entail believing in "some deity". Spiritual means relating to the human spiritAzrael wrote:ameliorate wrote:I found it too grim to get into on this lovely Sunday. Azrael, I seem to recall you saying
that you are not spiritual and that those that are believe in false hope....is that still the case?
Hi. I believe that when you are dead, your dead, period. There is no incontrovertible evidence that shows our soul or whatever it is passes on to another realm. You often hear people say "Well he or she has gone to a better place" and this may well be the case in their minds but death is not an easy concept for the human brain to grasp. And no I am not spiritual simply because I have yet to find anything spiritual to believe in. I do not sit around basing my life on some deity or deities that have not been proven to exist much less be of any help to me. And as far as false hope is concerned it is not just spiritual based. False hope can be anything from expecting to hit the lottery to winning a new car.
which is also something you seem to want scientific evidence for. The immaterial does not lend itself readily to
such investigation. For instance, love exists but science can merely reduce this to a chemical equation when,
most of us know that it is far more than this!
It seems you have never stepped outside your ego then? For instance, if you have meditated then you would
realise that you are more than just ego. We are mind (ego), body and spirit but I see you are not amenable
to believing this.
False hope is delusion. Those that have had experiences of the afterlife are not in this category.
Azrael- Member
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ameliorate wrote:Being spiritual does not necessarily entail believing in "some deity". Spiritual means relating to the human spiritAzrael wrote:ameliorate wrote:I found it too grim to get into on this lovely Sunday. Azrael, I seem to recall you saying
that you are not spiritual and that those that are believe in false hope....is that still the case?
Hi. I believe that when you are dead, your dead, period. There is no incontrovertible evidence that shows our soul or whatever it is passes on to another realm. You often hear people say "Well he or she has gone to a better place" and this may well be the case in their minds but death is not an easy concept for the human brain to grasp. And no I am not spiritual simply because I have yet to find anything spiritual to believe in. I do not sit around basing my life on some deity or deities that have not been proven to exist much less be of any help to me. And as far as false hope is concerned it is not just spiritual based. False hope can be anything from expecting to hit the lottery to winning a new car.
which is also something you seem to want scientific evidence for. The immaterial does not lend itself readily to
such investigation. For instance, love exists but science can merely reduce this to a chemical equation when,
most of us know that it is far more than this!
It seems you have never stepped outside your ego then? For instance, if you have meditated then you would
realise that you are more than just ego. We are mind (ego), body and spirit but I see you are not amenable
to believing this.
False hope is delusion. Those that have had experiences of the afterlife are not in this category.
"The soul is as yet an unknown quantity. It has no real place in the theories of the academic and scientific investigators. It is unproven and regarded by even more open-minded of the academicians as a possible hypothesis, but lacking demonstration. It is not accepted as a fact in the consciousness of the race. Only two groups of people accept is as a fact; one is the gullible, undeveloped, childlike person who, brought up on a scripture of the world, and being religiously inclined, accepts the postulates of religion -- such as the soul, God, and immortality -- without questioning. The other is that small but steadily growing band of Knowers of God, and of reality, who know the soul to be a fact in their own experience but are unable to prove its existence satisfactorily to man who admits only that which the concrete mind can grasp, analyses, criticism and test." ( A treatise on White Magic, p. 17)
http://www.esoteric-philosophy.net/soul.html
I don't see ego as a problem really. Being spiritual is the same as being religious. You accept a code of standards to live by without question. Thus far I have seen nothing that would convince me of anything spiritual that would enhance my life or well being or cause me to live forever. It's called simply "living in the real world". Smoke and Mirrors in the spiritual world prove nothing. Now if people believe this thats fine by me I am not knocking their beliefs.
False hope is delusion. Those that have had experiences of the afterlife are not in this category.
True they are not. Understanding brain functions at the time of death can explain a lot of this afterlife stuff.
SpiritVoices- Member
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I've seen and heard too much not to believe in an afterlife.
I can understand your unbelief too.
But there is 'something' that denies the fact that there nothing there after death.
I can understand your unbelief too.
But there is 'something' that denies the fact that there nothing there after death.
Azrael- Member
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SpiritVoices wrote:I've seen and heard too much not to believe in an afterlife.
I can understand your unbelief too.
But there is 'something' that denies the fact that there nothing there after death.
Hi SV...seeing and hearing is not evidence of afterlife...I see and hear a lot and believe nothing I see and very little I hear. But that said, if you believe in the afterlife thats great! Not trying to change your view. Starting to think I am on the wrong forum as far as my belief goes.
SpiritVoices- Member
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Then what would give you evidence,my friend?
Azrael- Member
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SpiritVoices wrote:Then what would give you evidence,my friend?
Not sure. But I do agree with Buddha that we do not have eternal souls. And that what keeps us bound to the death and rebirth process is the sense of wanting or craving something or anything in the world. Now that said, the Tibetan account of the first so called bardo has some parallels to the NDE. In the second bardo of Tibetan Buddhism often called Chonyid or the Lumnious Mind is explained where people have visions of heaven and hell and judgement. I find Tibetan Buddhism fascinating and agree with it in some ways and in some ways I don't.
Tibetan Perspectives on Death and Dying:
http://www2.lib.virginia.edu/exhibits/dead/intro.html
ameliorate- Member
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As mentioned, many things cannot be fully explained by science, e.g. love (reduced just to a chemical analysis).Azrael wrote: "The soul is as yet an unknown quantity. It has no real place in the theories of the academic and scientific investigators. It is unproven and regarded by even more open-minded of the academicians as a possible hypothesis, but lacking demonstration. It is not accepted as a fact in the consciousness of the race. Only two groups of people accept is as a fact; one is the gullible, undeveloped, childlike person who, brought up on a scripture of the world, and being religiously inclined, accepts the postulates of religion -- such as the soul, God, and immortality -- without questioning. The other is that small but steadily growing band of Knowers of God, and of reality, who know the soul to be a fact in their own experience but are unable to prove its existence satisfactorily to man who admits only that which the concrete mind can grasp, analyses, criticism and test." ( A treatise on White Magic, p. 17)
I could turn your quote around and say that science has no real place in the immaterial realm!
Azreal wrote:I don't see ego as a problem really. Being spiritual is the same as being religious. You accept a code of standards to live by without question. Thus far I have seen nothing that would convince me of anything spiritual that would enhance my life or well being or cause me to live forever. It's called simply "living in the real world". Smoke and Mirrors in the spiritual world prove nothing. Now if people believe this thats fine by me I am not knocking their beliefs.
Your knowledge of spirituality shows incorrect assumptions. It is possible to be spiritually focused and be a realist. I am one of these, i.e. keen not to be duped so there are aspects of spirituality that I do not embrace.
False hope is delusion. Those that have had experiences of the afterlife are not in this category.
Azrael wrote:True they are not. Understanding brain functions at the time of death can explain a lot of this afterlife stuff.
Perhaps but there are huge gaps in what it cannot explain too and this needs to be addressed if
the science is to be a convincing explanation.
Azrael- Member
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Still prefer to live outside the smoke and mirrors of spiritualism or religion. Both are excuses for having to die. Soul searching (if that exist) for some ancient technique or ritual that will enhance some form of my life. As far as this afterlife stuff until some one presents solid evidence of its existence my opinion is you die, your buried, and you decay six feet under. Life has you know it ends and the grave begins.
ameliorate- Member
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Sorry to read you are so cynical. I am not deluded and have had enough experiences to know that when the body dies, something lives on. However, it feels like a waste of time disclosing anything because your mind does not seem open.Azrael wrote:Still prefer to live outside the smoke and mirrors of spiritualism or religion. Both are excuses for having to die. Soul searching (if that exist) for some ancient technique or ritual that will enhance some form of my life. As far as this afterlife stuff until some one presents solid evidence of its existence my opinion is you die, your buried, and you decay six feet under. Life has you know it ends and the grave begins.
Science has limitations and is not the be and end all of what is the truth.
Azrael- Member
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ameliorate wrote:Sorry to read you are so cynical. I am not deluded and have had enough experiences to know that when the body dies, something lives on. However, it feels like a waste of time disclosing anything because your mind does not seem open.Azrael wrote:Still prefer to live outside the smoke and mirrors of spiritualism or religion. Both are excuses for having to die. Soul searching (if that exist) for some ancient technique or ritual that will enhance some form of my life. As far as this afterlife stuff until some one presents solid evidence of its existence my opinion is you die, your buried, and you decay six feet under. Life has you know it ends and the grave begins.
Science has limitations and is not the be and end all of what is the truth.
Carl Sagan once said:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
So where do we find the "extraordinary evidence"? The Bible? The Koran? Testimony is not evidence.
ameliorate wrote:I am not deluded and have had enough experiences to know that when the body dies, something lives on.
By no means am I saying your are and I do not believe you are. Your responses are way to intelligent. But those experiences that you claim you have had can they be verified by independent sources other than yourself?
ameliorate wrote:Science has limitations and is not the be and end all of what is the truth.
What is truth? Religions claim to have it. Governments claim to have it. Problem is truth is a word that has a different meaning to everyone.
ameliorate wrote:However, it feels like a waste of time disclosing anything because your mind does not seem open.
Well I won't say its totally closed to the idea of an after life but the claims are as I said "extraordinary" and as far as I know no one has came back to give a report on it.
ameliorate- Member
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It would seem that subjective experiences count for nothing with you....can they be so easily dismissed? EspeciallyAzrael wrote:Carl Sagan once said:ameliorate wrote:Science has limitations and is not the be and end all of what is the truth.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
So where do we find the "extraordinary evidence"? The Bible? The Koran? Testimony is not evidence.
when so many have similar experiences. Sometimes these happen to someone who was a non believer....that
should make you think.
ameliorate wrote:I am not deluded and have had enough experiences to know that when the body dies, something lives on.
Sorry, I wasn't wired up in a science lab when I had those experiences so they don't count with you do they?Azrael wrote:
By no means am I saying your are and I do not believe you are. Your responses are way to intelligent. But those experiences that you claim you have had can they be verified by independent sources other than yourself?
ameliorate wrote:Science has limitations and is not the be and end all of what is the truth.
Azrael wrote:What is truth? Religions claim to have it. Governments claim to have it. Problem is truth is a word that has a different meaning to everyone.
I agree that defining truth is problematic and is subject to interpretation and perceptive filters. Can science explain everything? I think not. Science may be a useful tool but the mystery of life cannot always be measured by man.
Thunder Bow- Member
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I have to laugh at this quote. Reads like a line out of the script of a poorly made SyFy TV movie. Azrael, what are your thoughts on this line: Life and death are all one and the same.Azrael wrote:Still prefer to live outside the smoke and mirrors of spiritualism or religion. Both are excuses for having to die. Soul searching (if that exist) for some ancient technique or ritual that will enhance some form of my life. As far as this afterlife stuff until some one presents solid evidence of its existence my opinion is you die, your buried, and you decay six feet under. Life has you know it ends and the grave begins.
Azrael- Member
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Thunder Bow wrote:I have to laugh at this quote. Reads like a line out of the script of a poorly made SyFy TV movie. Azrael, what are your thoughts on this line: Life and death are all one and the same.Azrael wrote:Still prefer to live outside the smoke and mirrors of spiritualism or religion. Both are excuses for having to die. Soul searching (if that exist) for some ancient technique or ritual that will enhance some form of my life. As far as this afterlife stuff until some one presents solid evidence of its existence my opinion is you die, your buried, and you decay six feet under. Life has you know it ends and the grave begins.
I laugh at a lot of stuff here to be honest. As far as that line "Life and Death are all one and the same" not hardly. Death is the cessation of all bodily functions which is or should be obvious that it is the exact opposite of life....Now if your saying that in death we live the same as in life thats monkey malarkey. What proof is there of this? I have read a lot of opinions, some claiming testimony to afterlife and not one shred of hard evidence to prove any of it. One thing though, buy a commercial fan they move smoke pretty well and rocks break mirrors extremely well.
Azrael- Member
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ameliorate wrote:It would seem that subjective experiences count for nothing with you....can they be so easily dismissed? EspeciallyAzrael wrote:Carl Sagan once said:ameliorate wrote:Science has limitations and is not the be and end all of what is the truth.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
So where do we find the "extraordinary evidence"? The Bible? The Koran? Testimony is not evidence.
when so many have similar experiences. Sometimes these happen to someone who was a non believer....that
should make you think.ameliorate wrote:I am not deluded and have had enough experiences to know that when the body dies, something lives on.Sorry, I wasn't wired up in a science lab when I had those experiences so they don't count with you do they?Azrael wrote:
By no means am I saying your are and I do not believe you are. Your responses are way to intelligent. But those experiences that you claim you have had can they be verified by independent sources other than yourself?ameliorate wrote:Science has limitations and is not the be and end all of what is the truth.Azrael wrote:What is truth? Religions claim to have it. Governments claim to have it. Problem is truth is a word that has a different meaning to everyone.
I agree that defining truth is problematic and is subject to interpretation and perceptive filters. Can science explain everything? I think not. Science may be a useful tool but the mystery of life cannot always be measured by man.
ameliorate wrote:It would seem that subjective experiences count for nothing with you....can they be so easily dismissed? Especially
when so many have similar experiences. Sometimes these happen to someone who was a non believer....that
should make you think.
Its a subjective belief and its not based on any real evidence other than testimony of the many.
ameliorate wrote:Sometimes these happen to someone who was a non believer....that
should make you think.
Not really.
ameliorate- Member
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The spirit plane is higher than the material plane, so nothing on this plane can measure it.
"If you accept a limiting belief, then it will become a truth for you." Louise L. Hay
"If you accept a limiting belief, then it will become a truth for you." Louise L. Hay
Thunder Bow- Member
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I am speaking of the natural world. The cycles in nature. Not of life after death in religious terms.
Native spirit- Member
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There are only two certainties one is we live the other is we die what ever you believe happen afterwards is of your own opinion.
Namaste
Namaste
Azrael- Member
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Native spirit wrote:There are only two certainties one is we live the other is we die what ever you believe happen afterwards is of your own opinion.
Namaste
Well you cannot argue with logic like that.
Azrael- Member
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ameliorate wrote:The spirit plane is higher than the material plane, so nothing on this plane can measure it.
"If you accept a limiting belief, then it will become a truth for you." Louise L. Hay
Well I will have to take your word for it because my spirit meter is broke.....
Azrael- Member
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Thunder Bow wrote:I am speaking of the natural world. The cycles in nature. Not of life after death in religious terms.
OK...are you speaking in Native American terms or what?
Thunder Bow- Member
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I am a Navajo Indian. However, I am speaking of life and death in the natural world. The natural cycle of all things alive. This discussion is open to all, even if your not Native, or know Native spirituality.